Confucius, the Warring States Period, and Why Understanding Classical China is Key to Understanding Modern China: An interview with Andrew Seth Meyer

Andrew earned his BA from Brown University in 1989 and his PhD in East Asian Languages and Civilization from Harvard in 1999. He lived, worked and studied in different parts of China for four years and in Japan for one year. His academic work focuses on the intellectual history of early China, particularly that of the Warring States Period (481-221 BCE) and early empire. He is a Professor of History at Brooklyn College, the City University of New York, where he has taught courses on the ancient, medieval, and modern history of both China and Japan for more than twenty-five years. Andrew’s most recent book, To Rule All Under Heaven: A History of Classical China from Confucius to the First Emperor, explores the radical revolution of the Warring States Period (481 B.C.E.-221 B.C.E.), which has continued to shape the culture, society, and politics of China and greater East Asia until the present day. To learn more about his research and publications, readers may visit: https://www.andrewsethmeyer.com/

Q1. Please introduce yourself and tell us about your current interests.

My name is Andrew Seth Meyer, I am Professor of History at Brooklyn College, the City University of New York, where I have taught since the fall term of 2000. Before that I taught in the Departments of History and Religious Studies at North Central College in Naperville, Illinois. I received a BA in East Asian Studies from Brown University in 1989 and a PhD in East Asian Languages and Civilization from Harvard University in 1999. I lived, studied and taught in different parts of China for four years and in Japan for one year. My research has focused on the intellectual history of ancient and medieval China. I worked for about 12 years with a team of other scholars (John Major, Sarah Queen, Harold Roth, Michael Puett and Judson Murray) to produce the first complete English-language translation of the Huainanzi (淮南子) (Columbia, 2010), a Han Dynasty (203 BCE-220 CE) compendium of statecraft theory. My most recent book, To Rule Under Heaven: A History of Classical China from Confucius to the First Emperor, is the first single-volume history of the Warring States Period (481-221 BCE) in English.

Q2. To set the scene, please explain what is the Warring States Period (戰國時代) and what preceded and succeeded this time in Chinese history. Outside of China, what was happening in other parts of the world that can place this period in a context more familiar to non-Chinese readers?

The “Warring States” is a label applied by early Chinese literati during the early imperial era to the period just prior to the founding of the Chinese empire. In formal terms, the Warring States is largely a sub-period of the long Zhou Dynasty (周朝) (ca. 1045-256 BCE). The Zhou Dynasty was a seminal moment in the formation of Chinese civilization, as it established enduring norms of Chinese culture such as the concept of the “Mandate of Heaven.” The Zhou founders enjoyed a profound mystique, which is one of the reasons that the dynasty lasted almost 800 years, longer than any other ruling dynasty in Chinese history. For interpretive purposes, imperial literati broke the long reign of the Zhou into periods and sub-periods.

The Western Zhou (ca. 1045-771 BCE) denotes the early peak of Zhou power, when the dynasty ruled from its western capital in the Wei River Valley and exercised effective control over its eastern vassals on the Yellow River Plain. The Eastern Zhou (771-256 BCE) signifies the latter era of Zhou rule, after the western base area of the Zhou kings was overrun by a non-Sinitic people known as the Xianyun (猃狁) and the royal house was forced to move to an enclave on the Yellow River Plain in the midst of the domains of the dynasty’s eastern vassals. This move sapped the Zhou kings of military and economic power, and the authority of the Zhou kings steadily declined from 771 BCE down to the final extinguishing of the dynasty in 256 BCE. This latter era of progressively steepening decline is conventionally subdivided into the Spring and Autumn 春秋 Period (771-481 BCE – the period takes its name from a chronicle attributed to Confucius) and the Warring States Period (481-221 BCE).

During the Spring and Autumn Period, the central authority of the Zhou kings steadily declined and the regulating norms of aristocratic society steadily deteriorated, leading to ever-escalating strife and chaos. The Warring States Period saw the total collapse of the Zhou order in practice, despite the fact that the dynasty continued to hold the title “Son of Heaven” in name. By the height of the Warring States Period, the most powerful regional rulers of the Zhou domain had usurped the title “king,” and operated as wholly sovereign and autonomous powers in total disregard of purported Zhou “hegemony.” The seven greatest Warring States were wealthy, technologically sophisticated, and militarily enormously powerful. Until 221 B.C.E. the Sinitic world was thus Balkanized in a manner akin to what we see in Europe from the 18^th through the 20^th centuries, as the contending kingdoms of the Warring States vied with one another in a continuous and destructive contest for domination.

The period of the Warring States began during the era in which the Persian Wars (490-479 BCE) were transpiring in the Mediterranean world and extended through the conquests of Alexander 334-323 BCE and the beginning of the Punic Wars (264-146 BCE). In ancient Judea ancient prophets such as Ezra (fl. ca. 444 BCE) were active. In India the era saw the early history of traditions such as Buddhism and Jainism and the formulation of some of the early Vedic scriptures collected in the Upanishads (ca. 800-300 BCE).

Q3. Before we get into specific questions, what motivated you to write this book? What were some of the challenges in writing about such a complicated and ancient period of history and what were the source documents you relied on to separate fact from fiction?

The need for this book has been evident for a long time. If one wants to learn about the corresponding period in the ancient Mediterranean world, the ancient Middle East or India, there are many choices available to general readers in any well-stocked English-language bookstore. But before now there has been no book-length study of the Warring States Period available to general readers, only sections and chapters in larger historical anthologies and textbooks by scholars such as Li Feng, Mark Edward Lewis, John Major and Constance Cook.

As a teacher I most enjoy giving courses on early Chinese intellectual history, where I lead my students through historical analysis of early works of Chinese thought such as the Analects (論語), the Daodejing (道德經), and the Lüshi chunqiu (呂氏春秋). The problem with setting up such a course has always been that if one wants students to historically analyze works of early Chinese thought, they need to have some way of learning early Chinese history. I always wished that there was a book I could assign to my students that would give them the historical background and context in which the sources I love teaching them about were produced. Eventually I was compelled to write such a book myself.

The challenges of writing this book were legion. Presenting Chinese geography, personal names, and cultural concepts to an audience unfamiliar with the Chinese script and language requires myriad creative techniques and solutions. Unfolding the narrative and introducing the characters in a way that was both coherent and engaging demanded creativity and thought. One of the biggest challenges stems from the history itself. Since the victorious Qin Dynasty (秦朝) (221-206 BCE), founded by one of the seven greatest Warring States after it conquered its six rivals, had purged the records of all of its enemies, the record of the period is fragmentary and riddled with lacunae. Reconstructing a verifiable chronology using such vexed sources was a labor-intensive task.

My work is based on a combination of transmitted and archaeologically recovered sources. The key transmitted sources include virtually all of the works attributed to the “Masters” of the Warring States (e.g. the Mencius, the Zhuangzi, the Xunzi, the Mozi, etc.), prose anthologies such as the Zhanguo ce (戰國策) (Intrigues of the Warring States), and the great historical compendium attributed to the Han-era historian Sima Qian (司馬遷) (b. 145 BCE), The Records of the Historian (史記). Archaeologically recovered sources include bronze and stone inscriptions as well as texts written on bamboo and silk discovered in tomb complexes at places such as Guodian (郭店楚墓) and Shuihudi (睡虎地秦墓).

Q4. You’ve noted that the Warring States Period represented a seminal revolution of Chinese society, culture and politics. What do you mean by this and how is its legacy visible in subsequent dynasties and even in modern China today?

The Warring States saw a total transformation of the nature of state and society in the ancient Sinitic world. It led to the founding of the Chinese empire, which was a political system that endured, through many permutations, for more than two thousand years, ending only in 1911 C.E. The unification of the Warring States set the culture of expectations and norms that saw the scope of Chinese territorial integration steadily expand in subsequent centuries. It is without a doubt that absent the revolution of the Warring States, there would be no People’s Republic of China today.

The social and cultural dimensions of the revolution of the Warring States were equally profound. The end of hereditary aristocracy and the establishment of norms of power-sharing between political leaders and intellectual literati permanently inflected the nature of politics, economics, and social affairs in China and greater East-Asia, down to the present day. Traditions in which millions still participate, such as Confucianism and Daoism, were forged in the crucible of the Warring States. The nature of this revolution is discussed throughout the whole volume of To Rule All Under Heaven but is a special focus of the book’s conclusion.

Q5. An important theme of this period was the conflict and dynamic between what Chinese call Wen (文) and Wu (武). Please explain the meaning of these terms and why this period was so significant in terms of the ascendancy of the former.

In the simplest terms, “wen” and “wu” denote the “civil” and “martial” dimensions of human civilization, respectively. At the founding of the Zhou Dynasty, the ruling aristocracy viewed themselves principally as warriors, thus the martial dimensions of their identity (wu) were given equal or greater prominence to the “civil” or “cultured” traits and pursuits that distinguished aristocrats as social leaders (an appreciation for music, poetry, refinement of speech and dress, etc.).

Over the course of the Warring States cultural leaders militated for a change of perspective. Figures such as Confucius proposed that wen was clearly superior to and should be valued more than wu. Over time, this produced a new governing culture, in which it was deemed necessary to preserve the supremacy of civil over military authority in order to sustain the legitimacy of governing institutions, a norm that has informed politics in China and greater East Asia for most of recorded history. I discuss these developments throughout To Rule All Under Heaven, but it is a special focus of an exploration of military reform in Chapter 7.

Q6. The Warring States Period introduced the world to the three great figures of Confucian philosophy: Confucius (孔子), Mencius (孟子) and Xunzi (荀子). Please talk about the roots of Confucianism, how it evolved under these figures and the key differences between each. How did they view human nature, for example?

Confucius was the first thinker in China to assume the title and role of “Master (fuzi (夫子), ergo the Latinized version of his name – Kong fuzi (孔夫子), or ‘Master Kong’).” He was a very low-ranking aristocrat (a knight, or shi 士) in the northern state of Lu (鲁). Like Socrates in ancient Athens, he gathered a group of disciples around himself and taught them a doctrine that he called “the Way (Dao) (道),” which he claimed to have discovered among the writings, rituals, and institutions of the ancient sage kings. At the heart of his Way was a program of learning, which Confucius taught could, if pursued earnestly, make the student into a better person and a more effective leader. According to Confucius, the traditions of the Zhou founders were in decline because people had forgotten the commitment to learning that animated them. If men of learning were given responsibility, the tide of strife could be turned back.

Though Confucius was the first Master, he was not the last. In the decades after his death many thinkers arose in emulation of Confucius, assumed the title Master and gathered disciples around themselves. Other thinkers eschewed the model pioneered by Confucius, and promulgated written “Master’s” teachings under the name of famous figures of antiquity or legend. Though some of these latter day Masters followed the teachings espoused by Confucius, others broke with Confucius and promulgated opposing doctrines that they likewise labeled “the Way.”

Mencius and Xunzi were the two most prominent latter-day disciples of Confucius. Both men set out to defend Confucius’s vision of the Way from the challenge of “heterodox” Masters who claimed to have superseded or disproved Confucius. Both Mencius and Xunzi asserted the value of Confucius’s program of learning, but they disagreed about its basic principles. Mencius claimed that human nature was good, thus learning should be aimed at discovering and developing a student’s inborn moral feelings and capacities. Xunzi, by contrast, declared that human nature was evil, thus true learning seeks to reshape what is inside students by exposing them to beneficent external forces.

I discuss the evolution of Confucianism throughout the book, but I devote focused space to Confucius in Chapter 1, Mencius in Chapters 9 and 11, and to Xunzi in Chapters 11 and 14.

Q7. Another noted philosopher of the period was Mozi (墨子) and while he is not nearly as popular today as the Confucians, his teaching seems particularly relevant these days. What was his story and how did his philosophy differ from other schools of thought?

Mo Di (墨翟) (ca. 480-ca. 390 BCE) or Mozi (Master Mo) was a mysterious and fascinating figure. We do not know much about his background. He was most likely a knight who was born in the state of Lu. He may have studied the doctrines of Confucius as a young man, but later in life he taught his own doctrine that was diametrically opposed to that of Confucius.

Mozi decried Confucius’s teachings as too subjective and vague. He denied that people needed to develop special insight or sensitivity to lead a moral life, and insisted that all moral questions could be settled clearly and logically using criteria that everyone could recognize and understand. Claiming that the principle could be derived from observing the will of Heaven, Mozi taught that the Way always favors whatever alternative will yield the most “profit (li 利, a word that denoted material resources such as food, clothing, and shelter).” On this basis he asserted that offensive warfare and music should be banned, and that all people should care for one another equally, irrespective of kinship ties or political boundaries.

Mozi’s movement attracted many followers and was broadly influential. The influence of his thought can be seen in virtually all of the writings of the late Warring States, even those that do not agree with his doctrine. The Sunzi bingfa (孫子兵法) (The Art of War by Master Sun), for example, appropriates Mozi’s concept of “profit” as a criterion for assessing the outcomes of military strategy. I discuss Mo Di’s doctrine in some detail in Chapter 4 of To Rule All Under Heaven.

Q8. Many non-Chinese, including a certain segment of finance and tech bros, are familiar with Sunzi (孫子), also known as Sun Tzu, but fewer people know of Wu Zixu (伍子胥), who was an equally fascinating individual. Both served in the Kingdom of Wu (吳) and remain popular figures in modern Chinese culture. Please share some background on them, their exploits, and why you think they remain so relevant today.  

Wu Zixu is a towering figure who is still worshiped as a god in parts of southern China. A refugee from the southern kingdom of Chu (楚), where his family had been unjustly murdered by the state’s ruler, he became a high court minister in the upstart state of Wu, the capital of which was on the site of the present-day city of Suzhou. With Zixu’s guidance, the kingdom of Wu briefly became the most powerful state in the Zhou realm. This was a shock to the people of that time, because the people and rulers of Wu were not Chinese (they spoke an ancient Tai-Kadai or Hmong-Mien language), and were recent converts to the political norms of Zhou society.

Wu Zixu helped recruit Sun Wu (Sunzi), a northern émigré, to serve as a military commander in Wu. Together the two men helped lead the armies of Wu to successive triumphs, but Zixu’s story was a tragic one. The ruler of Wu became fixated on winning honors and prestige through campaigns against the Chinese states of the North China Plain. Zixu persistently warned his ruler of the threat posed by the state of Yue (越), a non-Chinese vassal of Wu, the capital of which was situated at the present-day city of Shaoxing. Wu’s king did not heed Zixu’s warning, and eventually had Zixu executed. Shortly afterwards, Wu’s king was killed and his entire kingdom was destroyed by its rival Yue. The saga of Wu’s rise and fall and the tragic career of Wu Zixu has been the stuff of legend ever since, inspiring dozens of stories, dramas, novels, and movies. I recount the saga of Wu Zixu’s life and his participation in the rise (and fall) of the Kingdom of Wu in Chapter 2 of To Rule All Under Heaven.

Q9. The Warring States Period saw the creation of two of the more prominent texts of Daoism (道家/道教) – Zhuangzi (莊子) and the Dao De Jing (道德經). Please explain what Daoism is, and the relevance of these texts. How does Daoism differ from Confucianism?

Daoism is a tradition of thought and practice that continues to claim tens of millions of adherents today in China, greater East Asia, and the world. Though the labels “Daoism/Daoist” were not coined until imperial times, the seminal doctrines and texts of the Daoist tradition were formulated during the Warring States Period.

Warring States Daoists (technically “proto-Daoists,” since the authors we are discussing did not identify themselves as “Daoists” at the time) began from the insight that though many different Masters claimed to be in possession of a Dao (Way) that expressed ultimate truth, they all disagreed with one another. Confucius claimed that the Dao required us to love music, Mozi claimed that the Dao required us to ban music. Was one of them lying? Even worse, was there in fact no ultimate Dao at all?

Daoists explained that the problem was rooted in the nature of reality and consciousness. All truth is a matter of perspective. When a celebrated concubine walked along the banks of a river, she was simultaneously “beautiful” from the perspective of the people on its banks, “ugly” from the perspective of the fish within its stream. Any truly ultimate Dao would have to embody a perspective from which the concubine was both “beautiful” and “ugly,” music both “good” and “bad.” The true Dao thus cannot be a product of human culture or expressible in language (both of which are inextricably tied to particular and contingent perspectives), but is latent in and contains the fabric of all time, space, mind, spirit, and matter.

Transcending culture and language, this cosmic Dao cannot be accessed through learning like the Dao of the Confucians and Mohists. It can only be experienced and embodied through meditative and yogic disciplines that have the simultaneous effect of clarifying the mind and vitalizing the body. These ideas and practices were first given voice in Warring States texts like the Zhuangzi and Laozi (老子), among others. I discuss the origins of Daoism in Chapter 11 of To Rule All Under Heaven.

Q10. Shifting gears, how did the role of women change and evolve over the Warring States Period?

Warring States society remained intensely patriarchal as had been the case earlier during the reign of the Zhou Dynasty. But because social, political, and economic power was dispersing throughout the community in complex and unpredictable ways, women also gained in autonomy and potential power. Though the information about women’s lives during the Warring States is limited, we can see clear evidence of the change of women’s roles in the many stories of politically influential women that survive from this period.

Historians have estimated that Chinese courts have been in the effective control of a female hegemon for as much as 50% of the time during recorded Chinese history. That is a pattern that began during the Warring States. As governments became more meritocratic, routinized and bureaucratic, female consorts of the rulers accrued authority through their ability to provide continuity and stability to court politics. A dynamic, learned and intelligent young wife or concubine could provide a bridge between the reign of her husband and that of her son. In a society where social roles were becoming more flexible and merit rather than birth was becoming a more important criterion of political leadership, old impediments to women’s participation in court politics broke down.

The Warring States is filled with the stories of fascinating women who left their mark on the politics of the era, and who were chief agents of the revolution of the age. Queen Jun (君王后) in Qi (齊) helmed her state for many decades. Mi Bazi (羋八子) led her brothers to become de facto rulers of the state of Qin, a realm of which none of them were natives. I discuss these and other intriguing figures throughout the chapters of To Rule All Under Heaven.

Q11. What was the foundation of cultural life in this period and how important were poetry, music and writing? Two notable texts include the Verses of Chu (楚辭) and the Classic of Poetry (詩經). Please explain what these are and their relevance.

Literacy became increasingly important as the Warring States progressed, because reading and writing were indispensable to the task of managing a bureaucratically organized state over an ever-expanding terrain. In this milieu writing was never a purely technical domain, but a philosophical and aesthetic one as well. During the Warring States as in all periods of history, beautiful writing was appreciated for both its power to galvanize political support for leaders and governments and its inherent capacity to awaken the senses and stir the emotions.

Like the works of Homer and Hesiod in the ancient Greek world, the Classic of Poetry and the Verses of Chu were revered as both repositories of wisdom and paragons of what the heights of beautiful writing could achieve. The former became enshrined as one of the Five Classics (五經) in the Confucian canon; the latter has been celebrated down to the present day as a literary masterpiece. The exact provenance of the Classic of Poetry is difficult to determine. Much of it was likely written before the Warring States, but it was codified as a canonical text during the era discussed in To Rule All Under Heaven. The earliest poems in the Verses of Chu were composed during the Warring States, and the anthology was added to later. I discuss the literature of the era throughout To Rule All Under Heaven, but devote special attention to the development of poetry in Chapter 14.

Q12. Everyone likes a good battle and the Warring States had more than its share of fighting. One notable conflict was the Battle of Changping (長平之戰). What was the background of this conflict and why was it so significant?

Qin, the westernmost of the Warring States, enjoyed an extraordinary geographic advantage. Its heartland was in the fertile and sheltered Wei River Valley. But it was not until the first half of the third century B.C.E. that Qin’s strategic dominance became clear to its rival Warring States. By 260 B.C.E. the only other state that could challenge Qin for hegemony was its neighboring (and cousin) state of Zhao (趙). Zhao had become a strategic juggernaut by developing powerful calvary units through subjugating or allying with the Inner Asian peoples that lived on the steppe frontier.

Tensions between Qin and Zhao reached a crescendo in 260 B.C.E. In that year an unconventional territorial exchange provoked Qin to invade Zhao, precipitating what was perhaps the largest military standoff of the era. As many as a million soldiers may have been involved in the campaign. For months the forces of Qin and Zhao faced off against one another in fortified trenches established over battle lines that extended for dozens of kilometers.

When the deadlock was finally broken Zhao suffered a catastrophic defeat in which thousands of its soldiers were slaughtered. The power of Zhao was crushed, and the inevitable triumph of Qin to become the leader of the Warring States was foreordained. I discuss the Battle of Changping in great detail in Chapter 13, “The Duel”.

Q13. Rituals and rites (known collectively as Li 禮) were such an important part of Chinese culture during the time period. What did these refer to and how did they intersect with the supernatural world of gods and spirits?

As in English, the Chinese term “ritual” denotes any form of symbolic action, including symbolic speech acts, and the body of traditions that give form to such actions. The domain of ritual is thus very broad. It extends from the simple act of bowing to an acquaintance up to enormous sacrificial ceremonies coordinating the roles of hundreds of participants over many days or weeks. The people of Zhou times had an almost anthropological appreciation for the importance of ritual in human society. There was a general awareness that all dimensions of human interaction are ritualized to one degree or another, and that success in social affairs depends on attention to the ritual proprietary of dress, speech, deportment and behavior.

Ritual had profound political significance during the Warring States (and earlier eras) because the state, at its heart, was organized around a spirit cult. The sovereign authority of any state was embodied in its Altars of the Soil and Grain (社稷) and in the ancestral temples of its ruling clan. Events of profound political significance could thus have an intensely ritualized character, as when King Hui of Liang (梁惠王) gathered the rulers of rival states to honor him as the new “Son of Heaven” at a conclave held at Welcome Pond in 344 B.C.E., or when the military savior of Qi, Tian Dan (田單), held sacrifices outdoors and raised the moral of his soldiers by telling them that the birds who gathered to eat the sacrificial flesh were messengers from the gods.

Confucius placed extreme emphasis on ritual as a supreme instrument of personal development and moral self-improvement. He proposed that no individual could achieve his or her full potential as a human being without making a profound existential commitment to learning ritual, participating in ritual, and being transformed by the performance of ritual. I discuss his ideas in detail in Chapter 1, and the role of ritual in the politics and society of the Warring States throughout To Rule All Under Heaven.

Q14. From a modern Chinese governance perspective, what do you see as key lessons from the Warring States Period that current Chinese leaders embrace? How did it influence views on centralized authority, fear of balkanization and the creation of the necessary conditions for political success?

The Warring States revolutionized Chinese state and society in ways that endure to this day. It brought the hereditary Bronze Age aristocracy to an end, and established meritocracy as the norm in Chinese political life. During the Warring States Chinese leaders and intellectuals stopped viewing the state as the ancestral patrimony of its ruling clan, and instead reconceived government as a regularized, bureaucratic affair organized to support the harmony and material prosperity of society at large. In this capacity, it became broadly understood that for government to be legitimate, it would have to share power with and institutionalize a central role for the educated. Finally, though China has experienced periodic eras of discord and division, the Warring States established integration and unity as the norm pursued by successive generations of Chinese leaders.

Though the present-day systems of state and society differ in dramatic respects from those of the Warring States, the deepest structural patterns of Chinese political and social life established between 481 B.C.E. and 221 B.C.E. have persisted to this day. It is this reason that I call the Warring States Period one of the most consequential revolutions in world history. I discuss these dimensions of the history of the period throughout the book but devote special attention to it in my Conclusion.

Q15. Please share any favorite books, publications, blogs, podcasts or other resources that readers could use to improve their understanding of Classical China, the Warring States Period, Chinese philosophers, poetry or other related topics.

Some of my favorite books about classical China include Early China: A Social and Cultural History by Li Feng, Sanctioned Violence in Early China by Mark Edward Lewis, Ancient China: A History by John Major and Constance Cook, The Art of Chinese Philosophy by Paul Goldin, Why Ancient Chinese Political Thought Matters by Daniel Bell, The World of Thought in Ancient China by Benjamin Schwartz, and Disputers of the Dao by Angus Graham. Wonderful translations of the early Chinese Masters have been published by Burton Watson, Angus Graham, Victor Mair, Brook Ziporyn, Olivia Milburn, Annping Chin, Moss Roberts, and many others. Those looking for further reading about classical China will find much inspiration in the endnotes and bibliography of To Rule All Under Heaven.

The blog Warp, Weft and Way is a wonderful resource for those interested in Chinese philosophy. The China History Podcast by Laszlo Montgomery is a great forum for those interested in Chinese history, and Kaiser Kuo’s Sinica podcast is indispensable to anyone curious about all dimensions of Chinese culture, politics, and current affairs.

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